OSC’s Watchtower street teach pt 1

Below is a conversation between me and a JW who I began speaking with outside of a well known hospital the week before last, this week will be our third of chatting. So these conversations are happening once a week for about 45 minutes, after which they exit the conversation until we meet again. Because this is a rewrite and to the best of my recollection, and because these things happened in person without resources or internet material at the ready, our conversation contains the little foibles and misstated nuggets of info that so often happen in real life conversations (e.g. me causally guesstimating how long it took to build the second temple). Still the references we used will be added towards the end and hopefully you’ll enjoy it. I changed names of course, added much of the meat of the conversation and hopefully will be adding more later. God bless all.

GST-674-07-770x300“Do you tell people you’re born again?”

#wife shaking her head in the background#

Daniel: “No because then I’d be a liar. I wouldn’t want to assume. Only the 144,000 are going to be with God.”

“Hmm. What’s the purpose of the Watchtower?”

Daniel: “They’re simply a legal body. One of many legal bodies.”

“What’s their purpose though. For example, imagine you were a door to door salesman trying to sell me a vacuum cleaner. You’d be saying ‘look at these FEATURES, look at how it can do THIS.’”

Daniel: 🙂

“What are the features of the watchtower. Can people be saved without the organization?”

Daniel: “Well. . .without an opportunity to be kind to the brethren, no, no. So no, people can’t be saved without the watchtower.”

“Wasn’t the thief upon the cross saved?”

Daniel: “Which one?”

“The one who said ‘we deserve what’s happening to us,’ then he looked to Jesus and said ‘remember me this day when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus replied ‘This day you’ll be with me in Paradise.’*

Daniel: “Yes but even Jesus wasn’t there on that same day.”

“What does that mean though. Was the thief saved without the watchtower and an opportunity to be kind to the brethren?”

Daniel: “That’s God’s mercy. He’ll live on the paradise earth and have an opportunity to accept God.”

“About being saved though. Doesn’t scripture teach that even alone God’s word is useful for ‘training’ us in ‘righteousness,’ so that we’re ‘equipped unto every good work.’ Even equipping us ‘unto salvation.’ So a man with no community, and no public authority who found scripture could be equipped to salvation.”*

Daniel: “. . .hmm.”

Wife: “This is all getting a little blah. . .” #sticks tongue out#

#goes off somewhere else#

“The Catholic church would teach it like this. . .they’d say they’re the only organization capable of channelling God’s super abundant grace to the world. Jesus’ sacrifice was so meritorious that there’s extra merit left over, and the Catholics teach only they’re able to share that grace with the people. But scripture teaches we’re “furbished for ALL good works,” and “equipped unto salvation” just by scripture alone. Isn’t the watchtower teaching something similar to the Catholics?”

Daniel: “Hmm. . .but you’re not a Catholic.”

“I’ve got one more question.”

Daniel: “I’m sure you have more. . .”

“I do. 🙂 But these are the only ones I’ve written down.”

Daniel: “Go on.”

“My Bible says ‘no prophecy comes by the will of man.’ It comes by the will of God.”*

Daniel: “That’s right.”

“So the failed watchtower prophecies of the 1920’s and the 1970’s, the ones we talked about last week, who did they come by?”

Daniel: “. . .they were overeager. There was a need to watch out. We can’t be sleeping, can’t be sleeping like the virgins.”

“Were these false prophecies from God?”

Daniel: “. . . .hmm. They were overeager. But there has to be unity. We need unity.”

“Did people leave your organization because of them?”

Daniel: “Oh yes.”


Daniel: “Some of them. They got discouraged.”

“If prophecy comes by God and those teachings of the watchtower were false, then their prophecies aren’t from God, right?”

Daniel: “. . .they were overeager.”

“Do you think Jesus was raised bodily from the dead?”

Daniel: “Bodily?”

“In the same body which hung on the cross.”

Daniel: “Why would that be necessary?”

“I don’t know about necessary. . .necessary with regards to? I just mean what do you believe scripture teaches.”

Daniel: “Jesus sacrificed his body to the father, so taking it back would be as if he were taking the sacrifice back.”

“But doesn’t Jesus say ‘handle me and see, it is I myself.’?”*

Daniel: “Ah but who was he talking to?”

“Thomas, doubting Thomas. 🙂 Then Thomas fell to His feet and said ‘Kurious mu ho thay hos mu.’ ‘The Lord of me and the God of me.’

Daniel: “He needed to be convinced. . .he had weak faith.”

“Doesn’t Jesus also say that He will raise up His own body in John chapter two?”

Daniel: “He does?”

“Oh yes! Jesus said to the wicked Pharisees ‘destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.’ And the Pharisees say something like ‘it’s taken us thirty years to build this temple. And you’re going to raise it up in three days?’ But then the narrator jumps in, John writes ‘But He was speaking of the temple of His body.‘”*

Daniel: “. . . .what do you think the answer is?”

“I think Jesus was either a liar, he was a deceiver (meaning he was lying unknowingly), or He was telling the truth. I think He was telling the truth.”

Daniel: “He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.”*

“Being made alive IN the spirit isn’t the same as being made alive AS a spirit, right?”

Daniel: “Ha. But scripture says flesh and blood can’t inherit the kingdom of heaven.”*

“Isn’t that explained by John chapter one, ‘For anyone who received Him He gave the right to become children of God. Not born of flesh and blood but of the spirit.’ Wasn’t Cornelius born of the spirit?”*

Daniel: “Yes. . .that was a first. . .”

“You’re not born again though?”

Daniel: “I wouldn’t want to assume.”

“But you can be, it’s a promise to the faithful.”

Daniel: Hmm.

“Remember in Luke, somewhere towards the end, scripture teaches the disciples were frightened when they seen Jesus, frightened because they thought they’d seen a ghost.”*

Daniel: “An apparition yes. . .”

#wife comes back#

“If someone was really into ghosts, poltergeists and the occult they’d probably be correcting me furiously. :)”

Daniel & wife: 🙂 🙂

“I don’t really know the difference between spooks and ghosts and apparitions. Still, I think that the disciples made the exact same mistake that the Watchtower are making today. They thought Jesus was a spirit and not a man, but Jesus says ‘handle me and see, a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see me having.’ The witnesses are making an honest mistake.”

Sadly our time ran down, although I’d be happy to update everyone again as to the progress of this lovely couple. The references hereafter.

Thieves upon the crosses. . . Luke 23:39-43

Fully equipped and wise unto salvation. . . 2 Timothy 3:15-17

No prophecy came by man. . . 2 Peter 1:20-21

Handle and see. . . Luke 24:39

Destroy this temple. . . John 2:19

Temple of His body. . . John 2:21* One of my Sunday school students really impressed me by adding 1 Corinthians 6:19 to this little point. . . “Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;” Great clarifier.

Alive in the spirit. . . 1 Peter 3:18

Can’t inherit. . . 1 Corinthians 15:5

For all who receive Him. . . John 1:12

Cornelius. . . Acts 10

Thought they’d seen a ghost. . . Luke 24:37

― T. C. M

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