Dialogue VIII: Tit for tat reasoning, mocking faiths and figurative swords Vs. literal swords!

Although most people are disinterested in joining a dialogue wherein their beliefs might be altered, they’re also curious of views outside of their own, sadly the first of these two often beats out the other. We’re often prideful, especially so when we feel our views are under attack, what’s more it’s that same pride that keeps our hearts and minds from looking inwardly when we’re challenged, hence today’s dialogue would be better called a lecture! Since there’s little by way of retort from the people who hold opposing views to myself, I’d like to think there’s important reasoning skills to be learnt hereafter regardless.


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posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 05:32 AM by bastion

Do you honestly think that’s an argument?

Protestants and Catholics both have the Bible in common, it doesn’t mean they aren’t busy trying to kill each other.

The Koran, like all religious texts has some sick barbaric verses in it – for example Jesus saying he came not to bring peace but a sword or the story of the epileptic boy where jesus claims he was possessed by a devil so in the US bible belt anyone with epilepsy would be locked up and forcibly sterilised until the 70s or so.


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posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 09:37 AM by deadeyedick

I have a sword.

Go out and kill anyone today that knocks on your door.

You tell me if there is a difference in the two statments if they came from God.


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posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 10:03 AM by bastion

‘insert made up phrase here’

‘insert made up phrase here’

‘compare made up phrases to make it look as if the post had a point or argument here’…

Both the Bible and Koran are clearly works of fiction and don’t come from any god so yes, passages/hadiths conflict with each other and lead to different denominations under the main religious branch i.e revelation saying jesus was there to judge and cause war on all mankind and send all non-believers to hell because it’s the right thing to do vs. John claiming he was a pacifist and non of that ever happened. One ‘book of god’; two very different interpretations.


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posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 05:53 AM by OldSchoolContemporary

It seems to me this is how people are operating within the topic: ‘Well, you have some bad things Muslims have done, I also have some bad things other people have done, therefore we are even.’ Is this really the level upon which people are contributing nowadays? This isn’t directed at you my friend, rather it’s an open question. Instead the portion below is for your benefit, feel welcome to explain if I’m off track within my reasoning.

Attaching a violent dimension onto Matthew 10:34 (I came not to send peace, but a sword) can’t be plainly done after having read Matthew 10:16-20, unfortunately there’s an overabundance of people who’re well-content ignoring that which Christian scripture promotes so to save themselves from having to jettison their bogus notions of Jesus. More plainly, are we really supposed to buy into the narrative that Jesus taught both turn the other cheek and “sick barbaric verses” like you’ve written?

Additionally, Matthew 10:35-36, which follows directly after Matthew 10:34, are both in reference to Micah 7:5 and Micah 7:6, which reads like so: “Do not trust a neighbour; put no confidence in a friend. Even with the woman who lies in your embrace guard the words of your lips. 6 For a son dishonours his father, a daughter rises up against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies are the members of his own household.” Due having read Micah we’re privileged with an in-depth understanding of Matthew 10:34, an understanding which does not facilitate an interpretation of violence. The sword you’re referring to isn’t a literal sword, rather it’s the sword of household division.

Notice that nobody arbitrarily made the sword non-literal, literate people don’t pick on a whim what’s literal and what’s figurative, rather they allow the context surrounding the word to decide how we read and interpret it. For example, if you read from a writer who describes the protagonist within his book as having legs “like bronze” you won’t turn around and say the character has actual bronze legs! The “like” clarifies.

Moreover, simply reading the rest of Matthew helps! Let’s not stop reading when we feel like we’ve found something that confirms our current world-view, as Matthew 26:52-53 says the following: “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?”

Yet these are the sorts of issues that people need explaining to them now, they’re literally being taught how to read books as their culture has failed them in that regard. Besides that, this is the sort of thing I think you may be missing out on, this is what I think and my reasoning behind it, not how I feel and why you should respect my feelings, that sort of attitude just leaves everyone within their safe zones and unlearned concerning each others beliefs.

I can find a thousand, even hundreds of thousands, even millions of people who identify as Muslim (very important distinction there) that would also be disgusted by the idea of a man in his fifties having sexual relations with a nine year old child, they’d call this child abuse and would want to see the act brought to a halt within their own lifetime, do you see the problem yet? They condemn the act as child abuse while accepting that Muhammad (who consummated his marriage to his wife Aisha while she was just nine years of age) is the perfect example of human conduct.

See, and this isn’t to be provocative I can tell my Muslim friends, since from the material Muhammad loved this wife dearly, nevertheless people who call themselves Muslims can’t condemn men having sex with under-age girls within the confines of wedlock, they can’t do that while affirming Muhammad’s example as good for mankind. To fight the sort of things Muhammad did in the courts today would make that person an unbeliever only pretending to be Muslim, what an actual Muslim true to his faith would do is work to abolish the age of consent! You simply can’t fight Muhammad’s example and retain your Muslim status, if you fight his ways as not good for us you’re no longer an actual Muslim.

Here’s the issue, the above also applies to the warlike passages of the Qur’an, so just as Muslims can’t argue with Muhammad without forfeiting their status, they also can’t renounce actions like jihad without being branded an unbeliever.

This is again for everyone else. As it’s connect the dots time! I don’t go into rants about Muslims as Muslims can be white, black, grey, purple or any other colour you can name, Muslims are not a race of people, they’re followers of Islam, a religion. And as followers of a religion they are required to follow certain practices, for example I can’t say I’m a vegetarian and then eat a huge uncooked pig, well I can, but it would simply mean I don’t know how to use the word vegetarian. Likewise are peaceful Muslims, they aren’t using the word Muslim right, for which they’re Muslims in name only, not obeying their full belief system. I don’t just proclaim this, I can explain this. For this there’s only one question….

Is the belief system of Islam behind the violence we see propagated in its name today?

If the belief system of Islam isn’t behind this violence then ‘to you be your religion to me be mine’ is the overall Qur’an message, therefore Muslims need support, protecting and an articulate voice from within the believing community telling the world what Islam really stands for, such a voice could do this by way of the Qur’an itself if its message is peaceful!

We don’t hear that voice, it isn’t coming through, and making figurative swords literal (in the case of Christianity) and literal swords figurative (in the case of Islam) won’t change a thing, it will only continue the violence. Peaceful people who identify as Muslim, at least if they are serious about God, life and death, good and evil, need to look again at their belief system, and even re-evaluate whether or not they want to be Muslim any more.


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posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 02:55 AM by OldSchoolContemporary

Also, the same people who would rightly advise us against making sweeping generalizations about Muslims are themselves making sweeping generalizations with regards to religions! Is that really productive? An example….

‘The Koran, like all religious texts has some sick barbaric verses in it.’

I think even the poster would agree they weren’t speaking from their knowledge when they wrote this, since they’re covering so much ground they couldn’t possibly discount every religious text as being sick and barbaric in part. They’re either showing they’re fond of hyperbole, or they have unresolved emotional issues involving faith, although it could be both. Or my favourite use of religious hatred thus far….

‘Religion is hate
Religion is fear
Religion is war
Religion is rape
Religion’s obscene
Religion’s a whore
Sums up ALL religion for me. This is why I don’t claim ANY religion. Its ALL bogus.

I’m sure we’re all reasonable men and women in our daily lives, but the above is nearing a religious experience itself! It’s like we’re about to hear a moralistic sermon on the evils of religion. Lastly I was curious about this quotation, perhaps someone could tackle it for me…

‘It is one of the three most evil belief systems on the planet (Abrahamic religions), but if the Christians can make it work then so can the Muslims.’

Why can Muslims make it too, because we as people are all the same, or because all religions are selfsame? I wouldn’t want to speculate too long, instead the community can enlighten me. However I know personally it’s not the second option, since Islam and Christianity are fundamentally different, they’re different by way of their founders, how they were spread for the first three hundred years, and in their core teachings. So why does Islam, an entirely different belief system from Christianity, somehow (as if by right) get to make it work? By make it work I assume the writer means be peaceful, or functional in a manner we here in the western world can agree with.


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posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 03:51 AM by Whereismypassword

‘What we need to see to “level the playing field” are your examples of Christian beheadings, Christian car bombings, Christian kidnappings, stonings, mutilation, suicide bombers, then we can “level the playing field”. There is no way to favorably compare Islam with Christianity or any other religion.’

If you want a level playing field between Christians and Muslim let’s turn the table and reverse the rolls

Now let’s have Christian nations invaded by Muslims and all the Christian resistance fighters called terrorists

Let’s have the Muslims putting into power men to serve their agenda while their big companies make crazy money while thousands of Christians are killed

It’s amazing how people on this board are brainwashed into believing the MSN that churn out they hate our freedom angle on Muslims all the time

No,they don’t like your bombs or having to dig graves for their relatives

And on top of this all the west mocks their religion and insults them,killing them isn’t good enough they have to smear then too


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posted on Feb, 11 2015 @ 05:23 PM by OldSchoolContemporary

By ‘the west mock their religion’ I’m unsure of what you mean, since it seems you consider Islam special in that regard, as if to say believers in Islam alone are subject to ridicule. Yet that can’t be right! Christianity although foundational to western culture is mocked daily on public television, are we to consider Christians, pagans, Buddhists, Jews and everyone else punching bags while Muslims are to be left alone? And if they’re not left untouched in a protective bubble are we all to blame when Muslims bomb, behead and invade during some childlike tantrum?

Furthermore, are you suggesting that Islam isn’t deserving of an honest critic or two, since much of what people might call mocking is simply a fact based investigation into Islam. Or as someone else said while speaking on Islam’s founder, Muhammad: ‘I couldn’t say anything worse about Muhammad than early Muslims wrote themselves!’

It’s not just childish taunting, it’s also the above situation that people are now trying to stop.

‘It’s amazing how people on this board are brainwashed into believing the MSN that churn out they hate our freedom angle on Muslims all the time.’

Would this mean you my friend aren’t brainwashed in any fashion?

Is it at all possible that what you’re seeing online and elsewhere isn’t about hatred of people (Muslims) but rather an ongoing battle of ideas? Ideas which if left unchallenged would undoubtedly preclude you being able to express yourself the way you do.

‘they hate our freedom’

America (for example) doesn’t have the monopoly on freedom, but I will say as an outsider Americans do value their freedoms in a very special way amidst all the people of the world. It’s Islam (not every Muslim) that stands wholeheartedly in opposition to that same freedom, I’m not sure if you’re aware of that. Having studied Islam for several years I can tell you in all candour that terrorists are walking, talking, killing products of Islam, they’re embracing Islam in a way that’s authentic, whereas Muslims who would befriend you and I are simply nominal in status.

If the above is true, if Islam really is that belief system that can’t abide another beliefs existence, should you and I be defending it?


As I reread the way in which I write to others I can’t help but notice a change, not one I’d like to endlessly harp on about, but I would like to write it’s lovely to feel my heart softening towards Islam! Not soft in a way that’s sacrificed zeal for the subject, as I’m just as passionate for the subject of Islam and world religions as I’ve ever been, if not more so than ever before. Instead I’d like to believe that the way in which my approach changes can both bring me closer  to The Father, and hopefully help others into gaining the knowledge of Christ’s saving power. And as for others, examine the claims of the New Testament, involve yourself with God, pray that if there’s truth out there it’ll be revealed to you, though not because someone else says it’s for the best, rather do so because we as finite beings owe it to ourselves to exhaust every question we’re able, and to know every name under the sun through which our lives could be changed forever.

― T. C. M

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