Dialogue I: Matthew 10, violence in Islam and who’s doing the work of the spirit

Amidst my most treasured publishings are undoubtedly dialogues wherein both I and someone open to discussion can speak freely about faith and spirituality, although they’re such a rarity you’re lucky to find one which doesn’t deteriorate into ad hominem attacks and intentional misrepresentation of posts. Therefore I hope others enjoy one of the few dialogues I’ve happily contributed to, and aside from the short detour into Matthew 10 (which I was tempted to omit due covering the subject here) there’s an awesome section regarding who’s working so to satisfy their flesh, and who’s doing the work of the spirit. There’s also some unique commentary from the online poster deadeyedick, who I’m sure like me is perfecting his study of scripture and growing in both wisdom and power. You’ll join now amidst the midmost of the conversation…


deadeyedick

posted on Sep, 11 2014 @ 02:14 PM

a reply to: OldSchoolContemporary
You failed to retrieve the context of Matthew. If you read the first part of the chapter you will find the clarification that refers to setting families against one an other and that would end in death.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

I have found that the spiritual wants and desires are often left out of all these debates. It is the one thing that could link all our misjudgements and misunderstandings when we try to understand events. I am sure we have all found ourselves wondering what we are doing and how we got where we are at one point or another. Without having access to the spiritual realm like others have then we are trying to understand events from strictly a fleshy standpoint.


OldSchoolContemporary

posted on Sep, 11 2014 @ 04:04 PM

a reply to: deadeyedick I wouldn’t be in a rush to correct you, my friend. However when you write “one needs to read all the context to know he is speaking about death.” you’ve left yourself open to an unsympathetic interpretation of both your words and the words of scripture, and that’s something many are all too eager to jump upon. Although what you’re writing is most assuredly true. And if I’m not misjudging you, you’re not meaning death how I’d first assumed, instead you’re writing about death through persecution. That’s an interpretation that seems entirely honest to scripture. Revisiting Matthew 10 for example…

“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Isn’t this forewarning of how the early followers of Jesus will both suffer and be persecuted by worldly powers? A distant cry from Jesus bringing about death by the sword with his murderous band of apostles, yet that’s exactly what many would have us believe. The type of links that have been given out are of the sort which make Mohammed look like Jesus and Jesus look like Mohammed, I’d laugh if it wasn’t so dishonest. Nevertheless, when returning to Matthew 10:38 we read: “Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.”

Now, taking up your cross is certainly not some call to arms, it’s said with regards to death, as you’ve written. I find this particularly evident in the death of Peter, as spoken of in the Gospel of John.

18 “Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.” 19 Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me!”

The command of Jesus to follow him is found both in John and in Matthew 10:38. An interesting topic regardless. Just so there’s no hijacking of the current subject though, I’m of the mind to ask you and others where does the religion of Islam end and it’s political dimension begin? Because as things stand they’re seemingly indivisible.


deadeyedick

posted on Sep, 11 2014 @ 05:17 PM

a reply to: OldSchoolContemporary
Great reply and I do post here to gain knowledge so thanks. I would have to say all in all that the pen can be mightier than the sword and when wielded in certain manners can cause reactions of violence that stem from words. If I influence someone to go out and cause violence then I hold the blood in my hands even if i were not present. Dead is dead no matter how it comes. Sort of like the thread asking if Jesus can be GOD and my answer is that today legally it is possible to give someone your authority by power of attorney. If i give someone my proxy then by all accounts they are a representation of me.

As far as the ops comments about islamphobia and it coming from every direction my response was that it is unlikely that everyone came together to discredit a religion but then on the other hand if we believe that our spirits can guide us then it becomes possible for groups to show like views on a subject across the board without the flesh knowing what is happening. Something that seems impossible suddenly sounds plausible if we get a different look at the whole.

The way I view the two religions in question today is the flesh and the spirit. I see Islam as doing the needs of the spirit at any cost while Christianity has now leaned more toward the flesh.


OldSchoolContemporary

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 05:11 AM

a reply to: deadeyedick
Sometimes we’re so preoccupied with exonerating a certain group from the misunderstandings of others that we miss vital context, so I’m very grateful for your correction, I spent time aplenty studying Matthew 10 yesterday. I’d like to think we’re all being perfected through dialogue like this.

However when you write “Christianity is geared towards the flesh” it almost sounds like you’re judging Christianity by way of Christian culture, and I couldn’t imagine a more ineffective way to get a handle on what Jesus taught than to look towards the modern Christian world. You have to imagine what the exemplar of the Christian scripture would walk, talk and behave like, because to judge Christianity based upon the actions of paedophile priests, crusaders and witch burners makes as much sense as condemning vegetarianism for seeing a so-called vegetarian going to town on a burger. We’ve got to get our hands dirty with the text to know who’s who in this world. That’s why I couldn’t possibly embrace Islam as anything other than a mistake, not wrong all the way through, but wrong at its core. Take some of these authentic sayings of Mohammed for example, which I’ll do my best to comment on in the most kindly fashion I’m able.

110 Hadith Qudsi—Allah’s Messenger said: On the Day of Resurrection, my Ummah (nation) will be gathered into three groups. One sort will enter Paradise without rendering an account (of their deeds). Another sort will be reckoned an easy account and admitted into Paradise. Yet another sort will come bearing on their backs heaps of sins like great mountains. Allah will ask the angels though He knows best about them: Who are these people? They will reply: They are humble slaves of yours. He will say: Unload the sins from them and put the same over the Jews and Christians: then let the humble slaves get into Paradise by virtue of My Mercy.

So, Christians believe that God sent Jesus the Christ who willingly died for me, you, Atheists, Buddhists and even Muslims while we yet hated him (1 John 4:10), this is an expression of God’s Grace and Righteousness, both punishing sin alongside forgiving humankind. Yet Mohammed reckons that’s not the case, since Jesus didn’t die upon the cross, instead the prophet of Islam proposed that Christians and Jews are going to be punished unwillingly for the sins of Muslims! You’ll find the same for reading Sahih Muslim 6665, 6666 and 6668. Are faithful Jewish husbands in Israel going to be punished as adulterers for the sexual sins of unfaithful Muslim husbands?! How can a perfectly good God render so unrighteous a verdict? Are we merely unaware of the goodness behind this seemingly diabolic act?

However Allah’s justice gets more bizarre, more fleshy to borrow your well chosen language.

Abu Umama narrated: “The Messenger of God said, ‘Everyone that God admits into paradise will be married to 72 wives; two of them are houris and seventy of his inheritance of the [female] dwellers of hell. All of them will have libidinous sex organs and he will have an ever-erect penis.”’

I can’t imagine others seeing this as teaching rich in spiritual knowledge, but if any do I’d be glad to hear them out. My view is that God for his righteous nature couldn’t allow sinners to reside in his presence, it’s like trying to mix water with oil, or a logical impossibility, yet Allah permits sinners and unbelieving women into paradise forever, what’s more his reasoning is he’d like to reward his Muslim men with sex partners of their choosing, even taking wives from the people of the Book who’re in hell fire. Add libidinousness (showing excessive sexual drive) into the mix and ever-erect penises and Allah’s paradise looks no better than a brothel, men concerned with their flesh can and do have so earthly a life nowadays.

Muslims today can love who they believe is God with all of their heart, but if they’re believing a lie they’re as doomed as any an idolater they’ve ever read about. Same goes for me. Moreover, I’d never be so insane as to rebuke ordinary Muslims with teachings suchlike the above, simply because 99% of Muslims haven’t even read them, they don’t know who they’re in bed with, but you can bet your last dollar Boko Haram have read them, al-Qaeda have read them, ISIS and Hamas too have read them. Truthfully world views can’t be fought by bullets and the like, Islam has tried annihilating it’s competition for over a millennium, and others have taken their pop at sending the Muslim belief system packing to no success, views are only properly conquered by the truth of opposing views, like that truth which people have found in Christ. If anyone doubts there’s an honest conflict between Islam and Christianity I’d simply quote Sahih Bukhari, the most authentic book of every Islamic book bar the Qur’an.

Volume 8, book 73, number 224:
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah’s Apostle said, “The most awful name in Allah’s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the king of kings).”

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 225:
Narrated by Abu Huraira
The Prophet said, “The most awful (meanest) name in Allah’s sight.” Sufyan said more than once, “The most awful (meanest) name in Allah’s sight is (that of) a man calling himself king of kings.” Sufyan said, “Somebody else (i.e. other than Abu Az-Zinad, a sub-narrator) says: What is meant by ‘The king of kings’ is ‘Shahan Shah.”

Anyone care to guess who owns this hated name?

Revelations 19:15-16 of The New Testament.
15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

And about your idea of someone being given “authority by power of attorney”, I’ll have to reply in short. I’ve never considered myself with knowledge enough to explain Christ’s nature or God’s plan in any a satisfying way, it’s like being asked “Explain God by using two examples.” it just can’t be done! God’s nature is hidden to all. Furthermore, I had long shared the Muslim dislike for the idea of God appearing to us in the fashion of man, or that He was bloodied and brutalised for messed up things we’re yet doing today, but any such dislike couldn’t beat back prophecy, the language only God can speak, and a wealth of manuscript evidence that describe Jesus hundreds of years before he was born, they tell of not just his claims, but of his atoning sacrifice. Where else could someone looking into faith go?

Sorry about the lecture everyone, I do write short posts too. Comments and corrections (if any) are welcome.


deadeyedick

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 11:47 AM

a reply to: OldSchoolContemporary Another great post. The Christians leaning toward the flesh to me means that they have more compassion for the flesh and when faced with a spiritual dilemma such as allowing divorce. That is understandable from our standpoint but when we come to this answer we are leaving a few things out of the equation. Like who were we before we got to this life. Muslims take it the opposite direction and will protect the needs of the spirit over the flesh at any cost. Such as stoning genital mutilation and so on.

Of coarse my view is not all that biblical but imagine for a moment that you were a part of a wolf pack or a herd of sheep and you had found your mate and had a very long life in love with each other and vowed to never let anything tear you apart. Now imagine that you died and were reborn as a human and were reunited with your mate and family. On the spiritual level you know who you are but their is a disconnect and in the flesh you do not remember. How far would you want your spirit to take you in the protection of your family until giving that their is an end for all of us and who you choose to be bound with is who you end up with on the other side.

I am not saying that this is the case but there has to be some factors here that we do not know and when we see the full picture things can fall into place. Things we see as horrible could be just ways for the spirit to come in and guide us. The reason Muslims will not acknowledge Jesus’ rightful place is because these two religions are both geared toward being the path that works best. It is a matter of pride that no common ground will not be found. When we weigh humanities actions against spiritual possibilities then things take on a different light. However it certainly is not any excuse we can have for violence against anyone but does tend to explain why some people can go all out against threats toward the family values. If you throw in the whole fallen walk among us bit then something could be going on that is unseen and spiritual.


OldSchoolContemporary

posted on Sep, 12 2014 @ 03:13 PM

a reply to: deadeyedick
The only problem I see is how we discern who is yielding to the flesh, and who to the spirit. Praying five times daily sounds so wonderful and spirit filled doesn’t it? I used to think so too, that was until I realized the prayer Muslims pray is known as “the cursing prayer”, through which they curse the Jews and Christians up to 6,000 times per year, apparently. We can read it merely by opening the first page of the Qur’an, it’s Surah 1.

“In the name of God, the infinitely Compassionate and Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of all the worlds.
The Compassionate, the Merciful. Ruler on the Day of Reckoning.
You alone do we worship, and You alone do we ask for help.
Guide us on the straight path,
the path of those who have received your grace;
not the path of those who have brought down wrath, nor of those who wander astray.
Amen.”

“those who have brought down wrath” Can be found in Surah 2:61, wherein the Jews are said to have incurred Allah’s wrath, whereas “those who wander astray” is an attack on Christians, as found in Surah 4:44. Are Muslims filled with the spirit when they mock and heap Allah’s supposed wrath upon the enemy five times daily? This isn’t prayer, my friend.

There’s marriage furthermore, who wouldn’t want our culture to be more supportive of the family unit, no-fault divorce has broken up an endless number of families, leaving a multiplicity of children damaged for life. Perhaps Islam would be the answer to mankind’s sinful nature? Not quite, since all Muslim men need to end their marriage vows is to say “I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you!”. It’s known as the triple-talaq. Here’s an example…

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 187:
Narrated by ‘Aisha

A man divorced his wife thrice (by expressing his decision to divorce her thrice), then she married another man who also divorced her. The Prophet was asked if she could legally marry the first husband (or not). The Prophet replied, “No, she cannot marry the first husband unless the second husband consummates his marriage with her, just as the first husband had done.”

This is the illusion of Islam, Islamic culture doesn’t have rape, because the courts won’t prosecute rapists without the woman finding four male Muslim witnesses (Surah 24:4). Islamic culture doesn’t have domestic violence, because beating your wife isn’t a crime according to the Qur’an (Surah 4:34). Islamic culture doesn’t have young apostates leaving the religion, because apostates die (Bukhari 52:260).

When young men go off to fight as jihadists for cowards, rapists, child killers and thugs, they do so because they believe Islam is the answer to everything that’s gone awry in modern life, they’re so disillusioned by the immediate that the idea of an all powerful caliphate actually appeals to them, like water to a man in the desert, but like many a desert spring it’s a mirage. It’s much like how you wrote, Muslim fighters are doing what they do “at any cost”, yet that cost isn’t in the blood of the people they’re slaying, rather they’re dying and costing themselves an eternity with God for every gunshot they fire.

Enjoy your day/evening/night. I’ll be off to tackle the religion board next, will spare the next level BS team from any awkward questions they have no flimsy copy and paste replies to. I hope the conversation has been of interest to you, brother. Peace be with you.


Originally posted here from Sep, 11 2014 to Sep, 12 2014.

― T. C. M

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